Hi Hedgehog.

I tried to join this group, but I was turned down. I had to join through a friend. The group was very good for a few months. It split into two factions, those who wanted to learn, and those that knew it all. The ones that wanted to learn tried giving their ideas before races where run, (pre posting) and for a little while it worked quite well. The ones that thought they knew all the answers, where not happy because they thought it would expose the methods to all in sundry. I suppose they had a point, but why join a group to discuse vdw if you don't want to talk about it. In the end the pre posters drifted away, getting fed up with getting little or no response. In fact the only response they did get, was being told they where doing it all wrong (even when they came up with winners) It must be soul destroying to keep being told your wrong, that's not the way to do it. When they asked, what's the right way they were told, read the books, follow the examples, but nothing constructive. As most of them could recite the books backwards!! The group now consists mainly of people who think they know, but aren't prepared to talk about it. Which is a pity, as there where some very knowledgeable people that where more than prepared to work together to help each other out. It does make me wonder if any of these public groups can ever work, because you can never be sure who the members really are.

Regards

Thanks Mtoto,
I don't feel so bad about not getting in now. It's a pity because from what you describe there must be some pretty good emails on the website. I know I'm just a learner, so any source of information I tend to devour. It seems I'm likely to miss out on this one.

Are you still in contact with any of the other ex-members of the group? Maybe they could be encouraged to use this forum. I know I'd like to learn from them.

Thanks again
hedgehog

VDW Methodology egroup

I am an existing member of this group which seems to be running out of steam quickly. I believe that Mtoto is to, but using one of his aliases. The main reason for the groups demise, is that the main contributors have branched out on their own to form a private group to analyse races before they happen.

One of the members of the private group has suggested to me that Mtoto has a good knowledge of the VDW methodology and would be allowed to
join the private set.

If you really want to join the egroup, I suggest you tell Mark that you are very keen to learn the methodology through his group and you have been told it is an excellent way through so many knowledgable people!

Marchwood

Thanks Marchwood,

I am keen to learn and would be happy just to get access to the existing emails on the VDW Methodology website as I'm sure they could teach me something useful. Thanks again for the help.

Can you tell me who is Mark? Is he the group moderator?

All the Best
hedgehog

Good grief will there be entance examinations next !

Probably sounds perverse but if there was an "answer" that everyone got to easily using his methods wouldnt it be rather boring - wheres the fun in that !

Personally I dont use VDW as I never look at form etc - but its a fascinating subject nevertheless

Hi Hedgehog,

Sorry I missed your post asking about Jock B. I must confess I haven't read much of his stuff, just a couple of articles I've come across. He appeared to have a reasonable understanding of racing, so who is to say his understanding of vdw is not as good as anyone else's. I don't know if the scorn aimed at him is because he tried to explain his ideas on vdw, or because he sold it. The purist are very reluctant to accept any adaptations to his methods, even when they work. As I have said before 2 people can use his method and come up with different answers for the same race. They appear to be saying there is only one answer, and everyone will select the same horse. After looking at his examples I just can't see this, it is down to form interpretation.

As for people discussing their selections on an open forum like this I don't think it will happen, there is a difference between this and a members only group. I joined this board to try and attract a possible 1 to 1 with interested parties. The problem with groups is they become to big and it is to easy to get side tracked.

If you wish to join the vdw group I would suggest you do, as Marchwood suggested. The group has the potential to be very good, if you can get past the negative attitude of the know it all brigade. You never know the group may even pick up momentum again.

Regards

Hello Mtoto,

Remember I was looking for the Little Owl form, well I thought I'd let you know that I found a source for old Sporting Chronicles, Sporting Lifes and Racing Posts. It called Historical Newspapers and you can contact them on 01988 402504. You can get full newspapers or photocopies of the relevant portions.

By the way you were right, the Little Owl form is in the Sporting Chronicle.

All the best
hedgehog

What is Gummy doing letting somebody join this elite group, the best on the Internet, without sitting his entrance examination - reckon he must come from the Channel Islands!

Suggest he pays double the normal subscription!

regards
Marchwood

hey, i wouldnt pass the pee test for entrance to this forum, but i enjoy reading what you all have to write, most of it doesnt make sense, but will do one day, when i peice all the bits together.

all i can say to you all is:
those that know, thank you.
those that dont, sit down and enjoy.

just one question though?
who is vdw?

chris

Hi Time,I wished.
VDW was a person who,without the visible support of computer or spreadsheet,set out a strategic set of common sense rules for beginner or expert to follow to enable a good ratio of winners to losers.
Like Nostradamus who also didn,t use a computer he is surrounded in mystery and only John Edwards can find the missing pieces,especially if like me you think erudite is a type of glue.
He is best known for the unlimited amount of threads on horseracing message boards and secret sects(maybe with the jockey.)all who have extra info on specially enlightened aspects of the man and his total wonder.
Go in peace my son,and far Quinelle.

so to cut to the chase, where do you originally find him?
is he still alive and kicking?

chris

Marchwood

Steady on !

Whether people agree with VDW or not that was a golden period for the sports forum page and what an excellent read it was - as nearly all letters included were aimed at methods/systems (I recognised your name !) I agree that it has gone downhill.

An interesting read is sometimes Nick Mordin - as he may say some things that havent been said before and can get you thinking which is never a bad thing . Although funnily enough I sometimes think there is a tendency to over analyse

Hello Time,

As to VDW being still alive, only God knows. However if he was about 30 when he came to England as a result of WWII he'd be about 85 to 90 now. Given the strides forward in medicine its just possible he is alive.

As to VDW material GummyRacing has a VDW section with copies of some of his letters to the racing press. Similar material is also available on Tripod under racingtips.

If you want to read more there are compilations of VDW letters such as "the Golden years of Van Der Wheil" and an abridged version of his only book "Systematic Betting" called "Betting the VDW Way" available from Browzers.

I'm only a learner at this, but if you want a recommendation as to which bits to read first I'd say

1. Any and All articles on Temperament.
2. "VDW Spells it out" in "the Golden years of Van Der Wheil". You can read this on GummyRacing or Tripod.
3. The article from "Betting the VDW Way" showing the second numerical picture based on class.
4. The Roushayd evaluation from "Racing in my System" by Tony Peach which seems to be the completest version.

I'm sure Marchwood, Mtoto, Swish or any of the other regulars to this forum would be able to give you better advise than this. Hope I haven't gone over the top in answering.

All the best
hedgehog

Barney.

I have only just found your vdw system thread. On looking at your selections the only one I considered seriously was Silver Surfer, and he failed on the last but very important factor to me VALUE. I must admit none of the others came any where near for me, did you have a look at Hurricane Lamp the other day?
Yesterday I had a good look at Top Buck, but the price was a taking the Micky. 20 runners and if you where quick the best price was 1/1. I haven't had a bet all week but that price didn't come near reflecting it's chances. No wonder there are so many rich bookies.

Hedgehog

Thanks for the information on the old racing papers. Now you have all the relevant information, do you agree and understand the Little Owl, and other examples for that day? It has taken me a long time to understand and agree on the Prominent King example, it is not as straight forward as many would have you believe.

I agree the Nick Mordin books are very thought provoking, as are the Alan Potts and Mark Coton. Although Coton has now joined the winner is a winner club, going back on everything he wrote in his first and best books.Strange that, Pricewise, to a winner at any price

Regards

Hello Mtoto,
I haven't got the papers yet but they're in the post or so I believe. I'll let you know how I do after I've had a bit of time to pour over them.

I haven't checked out the form for Prominent King yet and it wasn't one of the ones I got papers for. To be honest I'm not sure of the date the race was run. Having just written that I'm sure that when I check the relevent book the date will be obvious! If the date turns out not to be obvious, could you tell me it?

Of the more modern VDW selections the one I find most intriguing is Rivage Bleu. Checking the Racing post site for its form I found it only won once and VDW picked it!

All the best
hedgehog

please feel free take over the thread

i just havn't got the temperemnt.

what fantastic price on barracouda
you dont get many one horse races at that price.
must be value bet of the week.

Mtoto

thats odd as I was going to say about mark coton - but pressed the send button before I wrote it ! I totally agree its as if hes found a new religion because he couldnt make it work the other "value" way in the end . I tend to look at value in a slightly different way ie a horse is say 5 - 1 to win and hence evens a place - is there a type of bet that is likely to exceed these odds rather than the conventional win/each way type of bet

I laid Top buck (so apologies !) based on price

Hi Hedgehog

I would just like to say that I have read your articles in the September and November 2001 Smartsig with great interest. Are you a member of the Smartsig email group? Lots of interesting postings but nothing (at least recently) on your articles, or VDW in general.

I look forward to the future articles you mentioned: if they are as good as the ones to date I'm sure Stef will include them.

Cheers.

Hello all,

Unfortunately I have made a number of mistakes when paper and pencilling the class drop and peak data. I counted in Violet Express a 7-1 winner and just as bad missed a number of losers. I want to apologise to you all and especially to Swish. I'll triple check any data I post from now on.
The upshot is that Handiap class drop and peak only make an ROI of +0.03 with average winning odds of over 9-2.

Swish - if you don't mind I'll email you the data. It isn't a complete loss. An ROI of +0.27 can be achieved with handicap races if the horses are also one of the 3 form horses, one of the 4 ability horses and one of the 3 highest LTO class horses.

Fulham - thank you for your kind words. Just the pick up I needed after I'd discovered I'd made a rick.

Mtoto - I've checked the books for the date for the Prominent King race and can't find it. Can you tell me when the race was run?

Again apologies
All the best
hedgehog