I have native intelligence the capicity for creative and original thought plus the habit of utilising an investigative critical faculty, I dont need to read the books. That is not my function on this thread.

Epiglotis
You make yourself sound like some kind of F.....g robot,Then please put me out of my misery what is your aim or function on this thread Robbie...

Epi - There is no way, absolutely no way to find 100% winners in racing. There are ways that if used correctly will put the patient punter well in front. The VDW method is an approach that works, but like all things that need working on in life, there will be differences between individuals' end results depending on technique.

It is crystal clear that even on a thread/forum such as this, which you would think was likely to attract only those punters prepared to work and perhaps learn to find winners, there are some unaware of even the basics surrounding racing in this country. That is fair enough because everyone has to start somewhere. What isn't acceptable to my mind and others is that someone unversed in the subject matter of VDW should take it to task so often. And when one of these people displays a lack of basic knowledge on the most famous flat race in the world, you might understand why those trying to help such as Fulham should give a cool response.

Yes, I did say that races such as the Derby would have no place in VDWs bets IF the distance factor had to be proven. BUT it does not have to proven as displayed by some of VDWs bets. Through study of previous form and how 2yos are brought on and placed it is possible to highlight those that are likely to outstay their rivals wether they have won at the distance or not even tried it.

Consider this hypothetical athletic event. Linford Cristie competes with his other usual 100 metres co-athletes in a 400 metre event. He wins and decides to try another 400 metres event, but this time against top class 400 runners. What is the likely outcome?

Now had his first 400 metres event been against classy 200-400 meter runners, then suddenly his victory would show in a much better light relative to his 2nd race than had previously been the case.

Yesterday had won over 9f in good class improving when stepped up in trip at 2yo. She ran unplaced fto in the English 1000 behind Russian Rhythm and Six Perfections, the latter a group1 winning miler at 2yo. Her 2nd start at 3yo was in the Irish 1000 on a stiff track under softer conditions where she ran much better at 11/2 beating the 1/3 fav Six Perfections narrowly. If you think her 2 runs before the Oaks were comparable to Refuse To Bends 2 runs before the Derby then there is much to learn about class/form where young flat horses are concerned.

No one race, or even a handful demonstrate a successful approach. Yes, my selection in the Derby didn't quite get there but it still ran stones better than other self confessed VDW experts' selections. What is more I know my approach works especially in top class races.

JohnD continues to jeer from the sidelines, yet to me showed once again that he has not spotted the missing link (if it must have a name) with his first race bet yesterday. Still, no one picks up on why I made reference to the horses involved in Roushayds race that VDW detailed. Why? Because they can't seem to get on the line of thinking VDW was on.

In this respect Swish shows just how little he can interpret the writings of one person to another by insisting that Fulham and myself are one and the same. If he can't differentiate between two posters via their writing style what chance has he of understanding someone of VDWs literary standards?

Determined - As I say, this is just a weekend visit, but as a good example I think Bonus on the 10th May at Lingfield displays enough of what to look for along with showing how to interpret performances as real form.

And whilst I'm here, I notice that JIB has been let out of his ward again. Perhaps the doctors released him so he could go and find his Derby selection still loose in Surrey.

Re Stray Shot /Zamndra
Have you had the Carpet sweeper out
I would have picked a better time to prompt you But you appear to be buggering off for a few days
Whats your verdict??

Dont you want to talk about it

[This message was edited by boozer on June 08, 2003 at 06:01 PM.]

Guest,

Thanks for the reference to Bonus.

Guest
I do hope that you see fit to pop in now and again,But from a personal point of view i would like to say a big thankyou,I don't always agree with you but i understand where your coming from.Take good care of yourself and be lucky.

Rab

No. As far as I'm concerned, the amount of effort that I believe anyone, however bright, will need to put in to researching VDW's texts, his examples, and the clues Guest has given here is the best guarantee there is that how VDW assessed in-formness remains out of the public domain. Several posters, to my certain knowledge, have followed Guest's posts and more or less got there, and several others are clearly trying and will probably succeed. That's great. But put it out on a plate for the likes of Tic-Tac to exploit? No way.


Boozer

I wouldn't like to pre-empt others' contributions.


JIB

For the very cautious like me, there are sometimes long waits between VDW good things, and I've not placed a bet for over a week. In between times picking up free money from arbing has its attractions. One of the benefits of urban living and not, I suppose, available to you.

Nothing's changed with me
I was there in 1978 aged 30 so I have had a long time to think about things
What I will say is I understand the whole concept
It is a nice Idea and should work, unfortunately it doesnt seem to work in real time to the expected degree

I do appreciate Logic though

Dont know why Dermot even bothered to pay the entry fee for refuse to bend he was an obvious no hoper over 1m 4f being a sadlers wells & a half brother to meddia puzzle, put it this way i thought he`d as much chance of staying the distance as hawk wing had in last years race & as has already been mentioned take out high chaparral ?, could be wrong but last years race looked better quality as well.My own opinion is akin to mtotos in that refuse to bend was beat too far out to be his true form maybe he just didnt handle the track who knows? the fact is he was mullered on the day end of story, well my story anyway.

p.s. know there`s a sprinter in the family line as well so no smart alecs please

Here we go again, the phoenix is resurrected and the arguments start. Investor comes up with the same old crap about, if you have not the books etc. This is the same guy who doesn’t have the form books, so he hasn’t done the research either.
What I find interesting in this argument, is the idea that unless you have done the research you should not criticise and I would like to know, why not? If I receive a mailshot from a tipster promising me an 80% strike rate if I send him a cheque, am I wrong if I am sceptical and refuse to part with any money before seeing any proof? If a proven liar like investor tells me VDW is the best thing since sliced bread do you expect me to believe him? Or if someone who is so intellectually challenged as barney, tells me something is it any wonder I tend to ignore it?
Now we have the phoenix telling us that he became interested in VDW around 7 or 8 years ago and after 3 or 4 years study he began to make it pay. Well if what he puts up here is anything to go by, if this is the best that can be achieved after 4 years study I’d rather send my cheque to the tipster. Both ways appear to be a load of crap but it does not take me 4 years to write a cheque.
Sycophantic little boys like investor will always be with us, as will the guests of this world, and likewise mailshots from tipsters. They are the things we all have to put up with and so be it. But it will be a bad day if we are not allowed to criticise them, and you don’t have to do any research to see how good a thing is, just because millions of flies have researched the taste of shit and found it good does not mean I am going to start eating it.

Jimmy
It's unusual for you to be out of your coffin at this time of day,What's up you s..t the bed.

Hard thing to do if you're in a coffin.

Jimmy
Lol

Guest,
Interesting that you should nominate that particular race to Determined, you don't half believe in the showing the method in a good light

Determined,
I've just flicked back to my records on this race. I had 5 possible form horses in the race and they were in ability order:

Bonus - 88
Move It - 82
Hit's Only Money - 59
Mr Malarkey - 39
Awarding - 34

Remember also for early season 3YO's, VDW showed another way to crosscheck ability using speed. Taking the RP Topspeed figures the form horses were:

Bonus - 75
Hit's Only Money - 74
Move It - 71
Awarding - 64
Mr Malarkey - 46

The first 5 home make interesting reading viewed against the above.

Fulham,

I can see you have had a busy day, I can only admire the way you keep your temper and try to answer all questions.

However I have a few for you.

In the first example VDW gave when explaining Roushayd. Is First Division not selected because he was going up in class, or because he wasn't the c/form horse? Although it is possible he was the c/form horse, if he was, the fact that he was raised in class has to be the reason he wasn't a bet.

Could Desert Orchid be described as the c/form horse in his runs? Was Braashee the c/form horse in his race? I'm asking because I have been looking at the posting (re Ad Hoc) you posted. In it a very good case for making Ad Hoc the Roushayd selection was put forward by someone you think has a good grip on VDW. He goes through the whole procedure and once again c/form isn't mentioned. He does ask why What's Up Boys is over looked (the c/form horse). The obvious reason for me is because he is being raised in class. I may be wrong, but I would like to hear another reason if there is one. That Last question is open to anyone with a sensible answer.

Re the Derby

Much is being made of this race and how no one using VDW could have found the winner. It is a race for 3 year olds so the speed ability rating should be used. I know some will say those are the wrong speed ratings, to them I will say why?
Refuse To Bend 114 in a Group 1
Alamshar 114 Group 1
Kris Kin 114 Group 3

All were consistent. Try it with the Oaks remembering the class is as important as the speed figure.

I am not for one moment claiming a victory with the race. I have to say though I am not talking to my son (who knows very little about racing, apart from helping to put on my bets) He walked in with a big smile today, saying remember what you said about good figures coming from races with few runners, and he did win it easily.

I hate know all kids

Crock
R.e Bonus,When you say 5 Possible form horses,Do you think capability would be a better description.

Jimmy,

Here is a big difference between unsolicited mail shots from tipsters and this thread. You didn't ask for the mail, you chose to look in on this thread. We didn't go looking for you.

That is not to say if you, or anyone else has anything consecutive you will be made more than welcome.

Be Lucky

Crock,

Thanks for your comments re` Bonus